Ad hominem (was: Re: Glenn Geffner is Gone)

[John Francini]

[CC'ed back onto the BRI list, because I do not believe this should  
be discussed in private. It is very relevant to the (modified)  
subject under discussion.]


On 22 Jan 2008, at 12:28, Dan.Strassberg wrote:

> Hey, that WAS NOT an ad hominem attack! An ad hominem attack is a an
> attack on a person and not on his or her actions. If I had labeled you
> an idiot, that would have been an ad hominem attack.

That is an example of a particular type of "ad hominem abusive"  
argument -- a direct abusive attack against a person instead of the  
subject at hand.  But an argument can still be ad hominem without  
being abusive.

> But I did not
> attack you; I criticized a personal preference of which you had
> boasted. Moreover, I did not criticize YOU per se; I criticized your
> avowed affinity for programs that deal in yelling, invectives, and
> crude attempts as humor. In other words, I objected to a (proudly)
> avowed preference, of which should be ashamed--and too humilated to
> mention. The fact that WEEI is so popular and so successful says
> nothing good about its listeners, no matter how many of them there may
> be.

That is, in fact, the primary definition (sense 1, in fact) of ad  
hominem, at least according to the Random House Dictionary:

1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests  
rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

Full set of 5 different dictionary definitions here: <http:// 
dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad%20hominem>

So you are engaging in an ad-hominem rejection (sense 1) of those  
selfsame listeners you would profess to encourage to listen to a  
commercial version of It's Only a Game?  Because those are the  
listeners who buy the stuff that the station's advertisers sell;  
those are the ones who pay $250/seat to sell out the Wang Center for  
the Whiney Awards (whose proceeds go to charity), who donate the over  
$2 million each year to the Jimmy Fund through the Radiothon every  
August...

And also in an ad-hominem rejection of my arguments with the line  
"this says nothing good about you."


> I know it's all a matter of taste and that everyone is entitled to
> enjoy whatever makes him or her happy as long as that enjoyment does
> no harm to others. But you can't seriously believe that professing to
> enjoy WEEI's programming will garner you one ounce of credibility with
> any thinking human being!

Certainly not one who believes that his viewpoint on the subject is  
the only one that matters.

>
> So start by learning the meaning of the words you choose before you
> use them and then re-examine the personal habits of which you choose
> to boast.

I know the meaning very well, as you see from the above.  There are  
many ways to commit ad hominem attacks. Calling someone an epithet of  
some sort is merely the most obvious. Others, as you see, are much  
more subtle.

Would you care to comment on the substance of my reply?

John



>
> -----
> Dan Strassberg (dan.strassberg@att.net)
> eFax 1-707-215-6367
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Francini" <francini@mac.com>
> To: "Dan.Strassberg" <dan.strassberg@att.net>
> Cc: <ssmyth@psualum.com>; <boston-radio-interest@bostonradio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Glenn Geffner is gone
>
>
>> Dan,
>>
>> Is there any valid reason for resorting to ad-hominem attacks?
>> Please  discuss the SUBJECT and not the purveyor of the subject.
>>
>> To your point.  Even the title itself betrays the very reason why it
>> would not do well on commercial radio.  For most people who have an
>> emotional investment in their local sports teams, even their
>> conversations amongst fellow fans of the same team in REAL LIFE is
>> full of the same passion that you find in sports talk radio.
>> Denying  that absolute reality -- by trying to treat sports in the
>> George F.  Will-esque way that OaG's discourse is described -- will
>> find few  listeners and few advertisers.
>>
>> "It's Only a Game" is a *very* loaded phrase -- because it belittles
>> the emotional attachment people have to sports, and implies that
>> anything more than aloof, dispassionate, logical analysis is somehow
>> a Bad Thing. It's the kind of thing a parent might tell a child, a
>> rather perjorative term. It's as emotionally loaded as telling
>> someone to grow up.
>>
>> OaG can live and find an audience because it's not commercial radio,
>> and doesn't have to completely live or die on its Arbitrons.  But, I
>> assure you, it's not going to catch on with the masses.  Period.
>> Sports are an escape valve from a very serious world full of very
>> serious problems. It's an adult toybox.
>>
>> No, I have not listened to OaG. When I turn on sports talk, I want a
>> distraction, not erudition.
>>
>> Perhaps that makes me lowbrow.
>>
>> "So be it, Jedi."
>>
>> John Francini
>>
>>
>> On 22 Jan 2008, at 10:03, Dan.Strassberg wrote:
>>
>>> Well, that certainly says nothing good about you! You give no
>>> indication of ever having listened to NPR's Only a Game, which is
>>> by
>>> miles (light years even), the funniest, most literate, sports talk
>>> on
>>> the air around here--and most likely anywhere in the US. If NPR did
>>> call-in sports talk and had OaG's Bill Littlefield as host, it
>>> would
>>> be interesting to see how many callers would understand the schtick
>>> and would rise to the challenge of civil--albeit
>>> sardonic--discourse
>>> on sports. I think many would do so and would welcome the
>>> opportunity
>>> to demonstrate that Littlefield isn't the only guy who can maintain
>>> a
>>> rational perspective on sports--and have fun while he's doing it.
>>> The
>>> program's title neatly encapsulates its theme.
>>>
>>> -----
>>> Dan Strassberg (dan.strassberg@att.net)
>>> eFax 1-707-215-6367
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Francini"
>>> <francini@mac.com>
>>> To: <ssmyth@psualum.com>
>>> Cc: <boston-radio-interest@bostonradio.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:16 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Glenn Geffner is gone
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know I for one wouldn't listen to an NPR-style sports network.
>>>> Not  for one minute.  While WEEI is as locked in as a station can
>>>> be
>>>> on a  radio.
>>>>
>>>> john
>>>>
>>>
>>
>